Nasal Discharge

[Strawblady2000]

Hiya,

I need a little help.

I have 2 juv goulds (8 weeks) that look a llittle odd around the nostrils and eyes. The feathers are not wet...but they are darkened as feathers would if they were wet. Upon further examination, I used a small light and I could see the nostrils glistening, as if they had runny noses. Seems to be only on 1 side as well.

There are no other symptoms...eating fine, active, poops are perfect.

I'm at a loss. I cant tell if they are sneezing, as I've not seen a bird sneeze before.

I'm thinking a cold or respiratory something, but not sure what.

Any ideas?

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Nikki,

I'm not sure what could be causing this,:roll: my only hope is that someone else on the Forum can provide the answers regarding your Gouldians?:-(

One question that may help someone else in answering your question though, are the Birds affected from the same clutch/nest?

Paul.

[Strawblady2000]

Yes, Paul. They are from the same clutch and are currently housed together. Matter of fact, these birds are from the same clutch where I lost the 3 prior chicks. These 2 have been very well since then, and the only thing I'm noticing is the runny nose at present. Could be a respiratory infection. If it was just something in the air, both nostrils would be affected.

I swear, this clutch has been so frustrating. They are acting perfectly, but the nasal thing has got me worried, especially after everything that happened a few weeks ago.

I'm ready to chew my arm off, lol.

Thanks Paul.

[kenny]

hi nikki
the only thing i can find with those symptoms,............and i have been looking since you posted is ornithosis........but you dont want it to be that! its the only thing were birds get anasal discharge lets just hope that its something trivial

Watch for general signs of disease like lethargy, loss or appetite and weight loss. Look also for signs of respiratory tract disease like difficulty in breathing, discharge from the nostrils, swelling of the tissues around the eyes or discharge from the eyes.


those are the words from the website not mine



http://www.petplace.com/birds/chlamydiosis-psittacosis-ornithosis/page1.aspx

[Strawblady2000]

ACK!!!!!

No we certainly wouldnt want that!!!!!!!

Well, this morning, all seemed fine so far...still eating and playing. No drainage or anything from nares.

Something that I was thinking....I'm convinced that what killed the other chicks was trichomonas, as they displayed classic sgins. Sometimes, trich can get into the respiratory system. As they are juvies, their immune system isnt as strong, so I was thinking there was a possibility that the trich was coming back...definately I am watching for those other signs you mentioned!!!! They are doing the tongue-flicking thing every now and then...but not the regurgitationo motion with the neck-stretching.

No actual discharge from nares...or swelling of sinus or eyes. just slightly wet nostrils last night. I though one had a possible cough...as it wouls slightly twitch while it was trying to sleep. Havent noticed this just yet.

Kenny, dear, thank you for taking time to help me. It means alot. :)

[kenny]

hi nikki
no probs .........anytime! its strange what you dig up especially when you are searching on one species...like gouldians feeding habits are affected if it rains even if they are in a different country than their origin...not so as you would notice in a big way but idoes affect them.so if it rains a lot and they go off their food ...you heard it here first:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



ken

[Strawblady2000]

Ya know, stuff that one digs up caneither help or scare the crap outta you!!!

Goulds are a bit different, lol...when its rainy, they sit fluffed up as if they are sick...when the sun shines, they are as playful as can be. They are tempermental, for sure, even though they are considered "passive".

Of course, here in Texas, it either doesnt rain, or we get 10 inches in an afternoon.

(hug)

Thanks again.

[PAUL HEARN]

Hello Nikki,

What floor covering do you use for your birds and what nesting material do the birds have?
I'm just wondering if it could be an allergy rather than an infection etc?
Also because the affected chicks are from the same parents, have you treated the adults with a broad spectrum anti-biotic?

Paul.;)

[Strawblady2000]

Interesting points, Paul...thanks for bringing them up, as I was racking my brain about these as well.

There is carpet in the bird room. I have tried to sweep it with a hand sweeper as not to disturb the birds with a vacuum, but that only picked up surface seeds, etc. SO, this past weekend, I bought a miniature canister vacuum with a 3 filter system...picks up tiny tiny dust particles. So I vacuumed the heck out of the room (I love this thing, but that's a WHOLE other post, lol) Wonder if I kicked up dust into the air?

I was thinking that it might could have been this, but the 2 birds only have a problem with 1 nostril, not both. I though if it was allergies or irritation, it would happen bilaterally, not unilaterally.

On your other point...I also thought it may be a recurrence of the protozoal infection that these 2 escaped when the others died. I treated with an anti-protozoal and that saved the rest of the clutch. I've been watching very carefully. I gave in, though...I started up a course of anti-protozoal med combined with a broad spectrum antibiotic. Hate using AB's, as you know. Have probiotic on hand for when the course is over. Fear of the trichomonas coming back as well as the possible respiratory signs prompted me to try this approach.

I cannot currently treat the parents, as they are sitting on eggs. They up and laid another clutch this past week...which makes 2 clutches since I lost those chicks. I have got to get her to stop laying. Or...just flat out take her eggs away again and remove the nest. I CAN treat them with the antiprotozoal, though...and I will be starting this tomorrow when I treat the bengies (they are fostering, so I do this to prevent them, as possible carriers, from passing something on to the chicks).

These 2 juvies have been separated for 2 weeks. Parents are showing no signs of illness.

I also thought of airsac mites...but I run a preventative (S-76) every month or so, as it also rids any internal worms and external parasites in addition to the airsac mites. I've just never seen airsac mites take over and show symptoms in an 8 week old bird.

And, regarding nesting material, I use this particular flight as my "nappy cage" for weanlings and juvies in molt. I only house goulds in here, so no worries about bengies contaminating them with coccidiosis or other bengie-carrier diseases.

Hanging in there, watching closely and keeping my fingers crossed!

Wow...those were great leads, Paul. Sometimes, I get so many things going round in my head when somethings off in the birdroom, I cant htink straight. Having someone help sort the thoughts really really does help. Thank you!!!!!

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Nikki,

I doubt the carpet is a problem as I'm sure other birds would be showing similar symptoms, but what I was getting at was the floor covering of the cages (sorry for not being specific:roll:)?

I agree with your point regarding only one nostril being runny, but have you ever had a cold with one nostril running more than the other?:???:

If the adult birds are incubating eggs, rather than the hen being in the process of laying then I can see no problem in treating them both with anti-biotics.
Although the parents aren't showing signs of illness, that doesn't rule out that they may be passing on something to their offspring that is more obvious in very young birds?

Also did the birds show any signs before they fledged, or has this only become apparent in the 'Nappy Cage'? If the problem started in the Nappy Cage then I would suggest removing and scrubbing all of the perches in case this is simply because the birds have rubbed their beaks and eyes on the perches?

All the best, Paul.;-)

[Strawblady2000]

Paul, you humble me every time :lol:


LOL! The cage floors have paper. There's a wire grate to keep them from contact with the paper, lol. I wipe the wire down so there's no accumulation of poo. Also, the paper keeps mold and other moisture-thriving bacteria from flourishing, unlike other types of substrates.

Ya know...one-nostril colds happen. That's a good point. More frequently, for me, lo,, it's a sinus infection that affects one side.

As far as treating the parents...good point. She's on her 4th egg today, so there's plenty of time to treat if I start now.

I lost 1 chick the week they fledged, followed by 2 more the following week. Those chicks showed different symptoms, though, mainly regurgitation, followed by a downhill slide from there (appetite loss, sleeping, etc). The remaining 2 juvies have been in the nappy for 2 weeks and have been fine until a couple days ago.

I;ve peeked in on them several times today...no visible signs of weight loss...seem to be eating regularly (not too much-which is also a bad sign- and not too little).

I guess I'll know more in about 3 days or so...but the waiting just kills, ya know?

As far as cleaning the perches...I've got some knockout stuff to use...that Pet Focus I picked up turned out to work WONDERS!!!!!!

[kenny]

hi nikki
did you know that humans only breathe through one nostril at a time,and after about an hour theuy change over


ken

[Strawblady2000]

Hi Kenny,

No...I didnt know that. Hmmm. (Can you see me with my hand in front of my face testing this out??)


Oh...and about the ornithosis...you know, I got an interesting email from a well known breeder...and she mentioned her birds had this...and she was treating for Ornithosis for some other reasons...and it cleared up after Doxycycline was used for the Ornithosis.

She never said whether it was realted, only that the treatment for it cleared it up.

I havent read much about it...but, if youre right...you get a huge prize.

[kenny]

hi nikki
the doxycycline is used for s.t.ds as the other name for ornithosis is chlamydia and it can be transferred back and forth from human to bird....thats the main reason why i said you really dont want that!

ken:neutral:

[Strawblady2000]

LOLOLOL....no, I dont want that, now do I???

LOL!

Anyways...I fogot to mention, she was using it in conjunction with something else to treat infertility in her birds. Sounds to me like they were a little TOO promiscuous, lol. Just kidding.

Anyways...I've looked at some articles about it. So far, the only common thing I can find is the unilateral nasal issue.

Fortunately, I have medicine in my bird cabinet that can handle chlamydial infections...so if worse comes to worse, I'm already armed.

Meantime, I'll try not to inhale poo dust, lol...and watch for other human symptoms.

Thanks Kenny, that was very valuable.

[kenny]

hi nikki
as i said before thats what we are here for.the whole purpose of this website is to help each other with bird related knowledge


ken:wink:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Nikki and Ken,

It is very true that I am an extremely sad individual who is easily entertained at times,:roll: but the nostril thing, it works!!:lol:

But back to your birds, I'm out of ideas again so I hope with Ken's help that you both manage to crack the problem.

Paul.:wink:

[kenny]

hi paul
i am not just a pretty face mate.i think nikki has it sussed on her own mate

ken8)

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Ken,

Pretty face?:???: I'm not so sure?:lol:

Anyway where the hell did you find out the breathing through one nostril thing?:lol:

Paul.:wink:

[kenny]

hi paul
in the hospital mate ,when you are in intensive care after a big operation they put a drip in and if you cant move your mouth or throat in my case theypass a tube up your nose into your tum tum and they ask you which side you are breathing through and i didnt have a clue and that when i found out apparently your lungs also shut down on one side aswell .good eh!

ken

[kenny]

hi paul
also the people who do yoga use this to deep breath,you put your finger over one nostril and breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth then you cover the other one and repeat it does make you light headed but thats how they chill out

ken

[Strawblady2000]

I though I'd give an update.

The 2 juvies were presenting with darkening between the eyes and nares. At first, moisture was seen (clear) sitting in the nostrils, but that cleared up or at least doesnt seem to be a problem. BUT...it has moved to their eyes. Not both eyes...just one side in each bird.

The eyes are very watery, causing some matting of the feathers around the eyes. Both can still blink, etc., and the eyes open fully.

They've been treated with a broad spectrum antibiotic mixed with an antiprotozoal. After not much response, they were given a chlamydial bacteria anti-biotic, but there was no change. Made sure to give probiotic afterwards.

Oddly enough, there are no signs of anything else at this point. Appetite is good, still drinking, pretty active, not sleeping excessively, no clicking noises upon putting them to my ear. They look a tad thin, but felt for their breastbones and they were not protruding. The tissue around the eye seems swollen. May either be the eye tissue or could be the sinus tissue. Tops of the beak have a slightly dusty appearance, almost powdery (may be unrelated or not even a problem) and the poops are still perfect as can be. Also, they had a cage mate (that I also treated the same as he was exposed to these two) and he is perfectly fine. Removed the 2 juvies to a smaller cage, removed their cage mate to another cage and have completely disinfected their flight. Threw out about $50 in perches and greenery (shhh....don't tell hubby, lol)

I have had 1 other gould fall ill...but his is a very bad secondary respiratory infection. Poor guy sounds like he has celophane in his chest...very crackly sounding. He had no contact with the 2 juvies and his symptoms are different. I think he fell ill due to dead airsac mites clogging his trachea and getting infected after treatment. Don't think he'll make it another day...surely not longer than 2.


So...new conclusions....and there are a few of them, lol

Sinusitis
Rhinitis
Conjunctivitis

Something that sounds far fetched...is that it could also be a chronic issue...these juvies came from a clutch in which I lost 3 others to trichomonas or some other type of protozoa. If they were exposed, but had a strong enough immune system at the time (they were given treatment and never showed signs) but any residual protozoa remain, they may not have the immune system to fight much off. They are also in ther juvie molt...so that is another reason they may have a suppressed system.

I contacted some vets, but it's pretty useless. Taking them in will cause them enough stress to do them in.

So, I;m STILL at square one! Thanks for listening (reading). I had all this stuff circling round in my head and at least putting it down somewhere helps clear it out!

[kenny]

hi nikki
you might find this link interesting
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/features_airsacmites.mgi



ken8-)

[Strawblady2000]

Hiya Kenny,

The LGF site you listed has been like a Bible to me, lol. Laraine (owner) is wonderful. I'm not sure if you remember the pics I posted in my "rescue success" Thread, but I also posted those in a gouldian yahoo group to show everyone the results of what supplements I was using. Laraine saw them and long story short has posted an article of mine on her site titled "six Week Makeover" under the diet and nutrition section. Hers is the site where I order nearly everything I need.

I think Jimmy ordered some s-76 from her. So far, I've been very pleased with all of Dr. Marshalls products. S-76 is definately one of them, as it is an Ivermectin treatment placed either on the bird OR in the water and is safe for hatchlings even.

I thought this too (about the airsac mites). I run a monthly preventative with it, as it handles all kinds of things parasitical. I believe my yellow male has this problem...the s-76 caused the mites to clog his airway when they died, so he's gotten a respiratory infection. He fell ill about 4 days after treatment.

Thank you Kenny!

[kenny]

hi nikki
i remember it now you mention it ,jimmy had bought some products from her.thought it looked familiar.

ken8-)