greensinger x canary hybrids

[chris]

hi all,

i know this may or may not be the right place for this post, but i'll post anyway! some time last year there was a topic on BB where I, paul hearn, Karl and other were disscussing the possibility of producing a minature breed of canary. the idea was to cross breed a small fife canary along with a greensinger (which is quite common) and look for any fertile offspring produced. if any of the birds were found to be fertile, then the smallest were to be bred with either greensingers, canaries, or amonst other unrelated hybrids to produce a new minature breed of canary.

before anyone says this is impossible :lol: red factor canarys were produced by breeding canarys to red siskins. as i understand, they were believed infertile at first, but later found to be fertile when bred back to other canarys (could be wrong). and there is the theory that some hybrids can take several years to become fertile :?:

anyway, i have now started the first stage of this project, i have my first cock greensinger paired to a hen fife canary. the hen has build a nest today, and i have observed the cock bird feeding her so things are looking good. now i have to get hold of more greensingers to pair to my canaries to assure unrelated birds for the second stage which will be to find and pair any fertile young. the only way i can think of doing this is by a lot of trial and error! i will first try to determine the sex of each bird, then make various pairs such as hybrids to hybrids, hybrids to canary, and hybrids to greensingers.

greensingers are very close natural relatives of the canary, so i feel that it is possible to produce fertile hybrids, although it will take many years for a new breed of canary to emerge.

i'll keep you posted on how things go!

if anyone's interested in breeding a new breed :shock: let me know, i think paul has already named them "midget canaries" last year :lol: , or was it the half a pint canary :lol:

chris

[chris]

just realisied how many "I's" there are in that post, "I" don't mean to appear like all "I" think about is me me me :shock: :lol: , just can't think of a better word :lol: :lol:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Best of luck for the project mate!! :D
I think its great that the Canary Hen has accepted the Finch cock & that the hen has built a nest already!!

I haven't forgotten about it, in fact I was talking to my mate Dave Tanner yesterday about our intentions, now after your post you have livened up my ideas on the subject!! :D

I was thinking about taking a slightly different approach though :roll: .

A mate of mine has some Yellow Bellied Canaries which are slightly larger than the Green Singing Finch, I thought of creating a Hybrid from these two Species & then use the resulting young to pair with the Canary.
I also have a different idea for the Canary to use, :roll: I was thinking of pairing a Fife with an Irish Fancy to pair the crosses to the Finch Hybrids.
I know I'm making a bit more of a meal of this, but I think it will ensure more fertile eggs to start with.

Back to you Chris, I'm chuffed things are looking good with your first stage, please keep us posted on your progress.

Paul. :D

PS it may be a good idea to trim the hens vent feathers to help the tiny Greensinger hit the spot (if you know what I mean :D ), but if you do decide to trim the vent feathers be sure you don't go any where near the guide feathers. :wink:

[chris]

seems like a good idea, what do the guide feathers look like so i know what to avoid :shock:

i would have gone with the idea you suggested last year with breeding irish fancies to fifes, but i haven't come across any irish fancy canaries. if the method i'm using now doesn't work then i will try that one out :D

i'll leave the feather trimming for the first round of eggs as i suspect them to be arriving very soon :D if it works out fine then i won't bother but if the eggs are clear then i will definately trim the feathers.

chris

[laurab]

Wow! Hi guys,

it all sounds a bit complicated to me, good luck Chris, and keep us posted.

Laura

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris & Laura,

First of all Chris,

Irish Fancies have been hard to find for quite a while, but now there are quite a few about for aroung the ten quid mark, but I'm fussy :roll: & want a Green rather than the more commonly available Clears.
I've yet to find one but when I do I will make a start on the same as you are doing already. :wink:

The guide feathers I'm refering to are also known as cock feathers (although I'm not sure if that is the correct term for a hens guide feathers :D ) they are tiny feathers directly around the Cloaca that point outwards, when you blow the vent feathers aside you will see them.

Over to you Laura,

Its not that complicated realy, as usual Chris has posted something very interesting & I have replied & made it sound like Rocket Science (btw, most of my profiles have one of my occupations as a Rocket Scientist, this isn't true, I'm actualy the head of MI5).

Basicaly Chris is trying something that occurs very often in the British Bird breeding circles, Muling (Finch X Canary), but with far better intentions, in my view anyway.
Chris, myself & another what was BB member, decided we were going to attempt to breed a miniature Canary Breed, to do this we will be crossing Green Singing Finches, White Bellied Canaries or even at some stage Grey Singing Finches with various small Domesticated Canary Breeds (the Grey Singing Finch idea may be a bit too adventurous? :shock: )

Our intentions are to select certain resulting young that we hope to be fertile, so we can continue with our efforts to produce a Miniature Canary Breed, this does all sound hit & miss, because it is. :roll:

We could waste an entire season with any one or more pairings, & see ourselves far from taking on a four year project for it to become anything up to six years plus? :shock:

But hey would it be fun if we knew what to expect? :lol:

Back to you Chris,

I agree with you to leave any vent trimming on this round & if you have any fertile Eggs then you will know there will be no need to do so in the future.
The reason I mentioned trimming is because on Saturday I saw several Green Singers & they were tiny, on Sunday I saw my mates Fifes & realised just how much feather there is for the little chap to get through (sorry if I'm being too graphic :oops: ).

A question to you Chris, what colour is the Fife you are using?

Paul.

[dave85]

hey all,

This combination is intreging - is it open to anyone getting involved?

As i shall be getting some Greensingers at Stafford? would it be worthwhile me crossing them & passing any resultant young onto you guys?

As it'd be a challenge & useful help to you guys if i succeed?

Get in touch

Thanks
Dave H :P

p.s - what colour fife would be prefered in the pairing? as i have White? green? blue? & yellow? blue & yellow in cocks & the other 2 as hens?

[chris]

hi paul,

i am using a yellow fife canary. i think that this will make it easier to breed various colours into the minature canary breed at a later date. i will also try out breeding with one of my red factors next year just to see what happens, even if they aren't fertile it will be one cool looking hybrid :lol:

i see what you mean about a lot of feather for the lil chap to get through :lol: would it possiby be easier to pair a cock canary to a hen greensinger?

i have 0 eggs yet, but one hell of a nest. anyway, off to get a photo while i'm thinkin about it :wink:

chris

[chris]

http://www.ff3.co.uk/cragsipb/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_387.jpg

here's a picture of the pair

and their nest:

http://www.ff3.co.uk/cragsipb/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_388.jpg

[laurab]

Ah, he looks a bit intimidated :lol:

[dave85]

hey chris,

So is more people getting involved ok? or not?

As im up for pairing them both ways! cock singer x hen canary & cock canary x hen singer,

What about if i pair an orange canary cock x a green singer hen?

Let me know

Thanks
Dave H

[Anonymous]

hi dave,

whether you want to try out the hybrid or not is not my choice, i cannot stop you should i want to. however, if you do wish to try out this hybrid you will not be involved with our project as i don't feel that you are responsible enough to take part in this project. i have come to this conclusion from many of your posts on feathered flyer, if you have a problem with this then PM me and don't bog down this topic with an arguement.

sorry, chris :roll:

[chris]

sorry, i forgot to log in on the last post :wink:

just to confirm that it was me and not an imposter :wink:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Dave,

While I would like to thank you for your offer of help on this project, you may have noticed I have held back on my reply to your offer of help.

I have promised my good friend Laura that I will not cause any problems on her Website & Forum, you could say I have bottled it on my reply to you.

But as Chris has said, I think that maybe you do tend to take on far more than you can handle.

If I have offended you please PM me.

Paul.

[chris]

i have great news!

just found the fife sitting on an egg :D

only problem is that i stayed at my nan's last night and went to work this morning so was unable to remove the egg and place a duff egg under her. i'll just have to keep a close eye if anything hatches, and i will check the eggs next week with a light to see if there's anything in there!

finger's crossed that the lil chap hit the spot :lol: :lol: :lol:

chris :D

[laurab]

Hi Chris

call me stupid, but why would you have wanted to remove the egg and replace it with a duff one :roll:

[chris]

hi laura,

this is something that most canary breeders do. you remove each egg as it is layed and store it in some seed, then place a fake egg under the canary for each egg she has layed. after she has stopped laying and starts to sit tight, place all the real eggs back underneath her. this way all the chicks hatch on the same day and are less likely to be thrown out of the nest by larger chicks, or get less food.

with the fife hen being in a cage it shouldn't be too much of a problem as food will be readily available, and if any chicks get tossed out by their bigger brother/sister then i can hand rear them as i should be able to rescue them in time.

chris

[laurab]

Thanks for that Chris, I guess I should have known that :oops:

[chris]

just an update:

4 of the eggs appear clear :roll: but the 5th doesn't let any light through when held up to my light, so fingers crossed. either way i should know by the 16th march as that's when the last egg is due to hatch.

some good news however, my other pairs of canaries are all laying now... can't wait untill easter :D

chris

[laurab]

Well done Chris, I hope you are keeping notes so that you can write a story. :D

[chris]

funny you should mention that, i have been keeping a record of eggs laid, pairings, progress etc etc. comes in handy for when you want to predict what days your eggs should hatch :wink:

chris

[laurab]

It'll earn you a few bob too :lol:

[chris]

well, judegment day has come, and it ain't good news! all the eggs were infertile, i'm now going to trim the hen's vent when i've got the opportunity over the weekend. untill then i'll let em have a break. hopefully i can get better results next time round, let's hope paul has better luck when he get's his first pairs sorted. we could go a whole season with no luck whatsoever... but i like a challenge :D

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry to hear of the bad news, but hey at least you know you have a bonded pair of Birds there.
I'm glad the fall at the first hurdle hasn't put you off & that you are taking it in your stride that we could be wasting an entire season with this, you are a credit to Birdkeeping in more ways than one.

But yes please trim your Girls vent feathers & try to build the little Guy some stilts. :lol:

I too hope my first attempts go well, but if not I've got you to kick my butt if I ever falter in my enthusiasm.

Paul.

[chris]

about time i did an update :lol:

while i'm pretty sure the eggs in the nest at the moment are infertile i haven't yet taken them out. however the greensinger jumps straight onto the nest whenever the fife is off so that can only be good. i've also noticed him carrying around nest material today so maybe he just wasn't in breeding condition beforehand.

a few pics anyway:

http://www.ff3.co.uk/cragsipb/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_509.jpg

http://www.ff3.co.uk/cragsipb/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_508.jpg

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Great pics mate!

They look well & truely bonded to me I just hope you get at least one chick this year & you will be on your way!!

BTW I will be pairing my Green Singer to my White Bellied Canary this week, fingers crossed they get along. :D

Paul.

[dave85]

hey paul,

Now you know me in a different light - would it be wrong for me to get involved in this? as my canarys are not busy doing much yet & the greensingers arent either, so since its early would it be worth giving it a go?

i have a cock & hen greensinger, so if i was to do it i'd put a canary to both?

Let me know what you think?

Thanks
Dave H

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Dave,

I would say go for it, but which Canary breed do you propose to pair your Green Singers with?

Paul.

[dave85]

hey paul,

I have =
gloster - 2 3parts dark - 1hen (corona), 1 cock(consort)
fife - white & white variegated hens, blue cock, 2 yellow cocks,
2 variegated hens, 1 variegated cock, 1 green hen, 1 green cock.
coloured - 1 orange variegated cock, 1 brown hen, 2 orange/brown cocks with like yellowish tails.
& a border cock (white variegated).
+ 1 crested yellow hen (unsure of breed) but nice bird.

Which do you i should try?

Let me know
Dave H

[chris]

:shock: what did i miss this time? :lol:

[dave85]

hey chris,

I dunno what did you miss?

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Dave,

You would do better to try Chris's method using Fifes.

Paul.

[dave85]

hey paul,

Which colours? should i use?

white?
yellow?
variegated?
cinnamon?
green?
blue?

Thanks
Dave H

p.s - would my orange variegated cock not be a good pairing then? hes not alot bigger than a fife but is just orange in colour.

Also chris, why do you say that hen you posted on FF was a red factor? whens shes yellow?

[chris]

hi,

dave, i'd pair to green fifes if possible as this is what paul has suggested to me in the past. as for my yellow red factor :lol: believe me, she ain't yellow, more of a white/cream! the only reason she's like that is because i missed the moult last year and didn't have any carophyll red :lol: don't worry, she'll be very much back to her red self by the end of the year!

as for what did i miss, if i knew i wouldn't have asked :lol:

another tip on the greensinger hybrids, if the greensingers are wild caught it may be more difficult to pair them up to a canary, so might be worth breeding some greensingers of your own to pair to canaries next year (i never said this was a quick project :lol: ). if you can pair greensingers to coloured fifes with good results then go for it as it will be easier to breed colours into the midgets after should we find any to be fertile.

chris

[dave85]

hey chris,

Well ill pair to coloured fifes because my green cock is split blue & is paired with a white variegated.
and the green hen isnt the best quality, so ill see what ive got that i think will be good & pick up some wicker nests for the greensinger hen and see what happens.

Many of my hens are yellow feathered unlike your buff hen, so the greensinger if pairs with them should be able to manage to breed.

The weather is setting my canaries back as its dull & wet all the time at present, so if i pair them up now with greensingers & when the sun arrives it should spurt em into condition and they should breed.

You got hold of some more singers yet? if i get wicker nests then ill try breeding greensingers first but then if no success ill try the cross ok.
As the more singers i have the more their is to work with!

Thanks
Dave H
p.s - so you ok with me being involved in this now?

[chris]

hi dave,

i'm not totally convinced but i'm willing to let you have a try at it. the more people in on this the easier it will be to breed a fertile hybrid.

welcome aboard, i guess :lol:

chris

[dave85]

hey chris,

Not totally convinced about what?

I seperated the pair earlier but as soon as i did they was calling for each other and jumping on the cage fronts.

And when i put them back together the cock danced about with a piece of nesting material in his beak.

Dave H

p.s - so hopefully when she has a different nest site maybe they'll breed.

[laurab]

Hey Guys'

I hope you don't mind me leaving this up to you to sort out, I got lost on page one!

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi all,

Laura,

The fact is all we are trying to do is create a Miniature Canary Breed, to be honest we are going about it in a A*** about Face fashion :roll: we are going into this in different ways, but we will acheive the results we are looking for no matter how we do it.

The general idea is to use Wild Species of Serins eg Green Singing Finch to pair with Canaries to bring down the size of the Canary with the young produced. The ultimate aim is to produce a Canary of Green Singer size, Chris & Dave will be pairing Green Singers to Fife Canaries, I will be pairing a Green Singer to a White Bellied Canary another Wild Serin also known as a Giant Green Singer.
My aim is to pair these Birds & pair the resulting youngsters with both Canaries & another Green Singer.

The whole project will take at least 3 - 4 years, :roll: but who knows one or even all of us may give up due to bad results? :(

Dave,

I would suggest you use Self Birds if possible, by this I mean Greens, Blues, Cinnamons or even Fawns, if this is not possible then use Three Parts Dark or even Variegated.
But I will warn you this project isn't fool proof, expect failures & you won't be too disapointed, also read back on the thread & you will see that I suggested to Chris he trimmed the Canary vent feathers, but DO NOT trim the guide feathers!
If you expect a high number of Birds from this, give up before you start & breed straight Canaries & Green Singers.

Paul. :wink:

[chris]

hi dave,

to avoid the need to trim the vent, pair cock canarys to hen greensingers. that way the size difference should not be a problem.

chris

[dave85]

hey paul & chris,

Well for now i'll try and get my greensingers to reproduce & same with my canarys. then house young from both species together until they are mature then breed with them.

As my greensinger pair, seem to be well bonded unless you all think they'd be ok splitting them to canaries?

As i stated earlier many of the canary hens i actually have are yellow feathered, so the little green singer shouldn't have any problems but i will pair hen singers to canary cocks.

How much success are you 2 having with your pairs? paul is your hen white breast getting along with your singer? anymore eggs with your pair chris?

The more pairs we are able to setup for this project i feel will aid in the development of the end result as we will hopefully produce more birds in which to pair up in the 2nd generation instead of putting our eggs all in 1 basket.

So i can make 2 pair & you both have 1 pr each so thats 4prs how many do you think we need to secure the future of this project?

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

hi dave,

1 pair each :shock: seriously, i was thinking a minimum of 3 pairs of hybrids, 1 pair of canary, and one pair of greensingers ... and thats just on my part :lol:

although the way things are going it's 1 hybrid pair, 2 canary, and 0 greensinger pairs untill i get some.

if you think about it, how many birds are likely to be fertile? very few! so we need to breed as many as possible from unrelated pairs to prevent us reducing the gene pool and causing problems later on, but also to ensure we have at least 1 fertile chick. also, i wasn't planning on just trying out the hybrids for this year, that will be continuous so there will always be 3 breeding hybrid pairs, 1 canary minimum and 1 greensinger pair minimum.

chris

chris

[dave85]

hey chris,

Well if i split my singer pair, ill have -
2 pr singer x canary
+ 9 pair canaries

But i was thinking along the lines of if we really want to go for this, we need to devote more space to working on this.

e.g. have at least 2 hybrid pairs or more & 2 pairs canariess & if poss 1/2prs greensingers.

That way we have a new gene pool to delve into once, we manage to produce the 1st hybrids.
have you been to this site yet? - http://www.lostmymarblz.com/fl-breeding-crossbrd.htm

It covers many hybrid including the 1 us 3 are trying makes for interesting read.

Thanks
Dave H

[dave85]

OOPS wrong site

Its this one i should have posted - http://www.analogminds.nl/status/birdhouse/english/welke.htm

Thanks
Dave H

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Dave & Chris,

For now I'm sticking with just the one pair, :roll: Green Singer X White Bellied Canary, but I might take on another pair of Green Singers later on.

Although you are both right in having more than one pair of Birds for this project, I cannot afford any more cage space at the moment so if I breed from a pair of Singers as well outside this will help for next years pairings.

Paul. :wink:

[chris]

hi all,

time for an update! the hen is now sitting eggs again, what suprised me is that she's laid 6 eggs! i've now checked them and 3 are clear, however the other 3 are not so let's hope that these are fertile this time round.

the greensinger cock is now taking a part in looking after the eggs as he jumps on the nest to inspect and sit when the hen is off.

chris

[PAUL HEARN]

Nice one Chris!

My fingers are crossed for you! :D

Paul. :wink:

[dave85]

Good luck buddy! maybe the first success of the project, which means you may be 1 stage a head of both me & paul if your successful.

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

hi,

i've had more time to get the birds paired up though, so in a few weeks or months you and paul should hopefully be getting the same results, assuming any of my eggs are fertile!

chris

[dave85]

hey chris,

Maybe your right!

You know if i paired the cock singer to hen canary in a cage & put the hen greensinger in the flight with canarys & other finches she'd breed & he'd breed with the hen canary?

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

you could try it, but you might start a war with your canaries outside, and there's no guarantee they'll pair to canaries this season if they are already bonded with each other.

chris

[chris]

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

we have a chick!!!!!!

i just went to check up on my other chicks and heard a quiet tweeting, realised it wasn't coming from my week old canary chicks and checked the fife to find an egg just starting to hatch!

needless to say there's now a load of greens, soaked seed, and homemade eggfood in the cage, and the greensinger's doing a great job of guarding the nest from me :D

one very chuffed chris :D

[dave85]

WELL DONE CHRIS!!!! SUCCESS!!!

chris,

You should do a development of it like take a picture every couple of days so then you have a full record of it!

are there any other fertile eggs in nest?

hope the chick stays ok & he survives! 1st of many success's with this cross hopefully!

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

hi,

i will keep a written record, but i'll hold back from taking photos for now as i don't want to disturb the hen too much. there are 2 more possible fertile eggs, hopefully both will hatch but i will be more than happy if it's just this one, and she raises it sucessfully. if she doesn't raise the chicks sucessfully next time i will place the eggs under another canary to hatch and raise.

fingers crossed :D

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Well done matey!! :D :D

I fully agree with your comments, the main objective is to make sure the Bird/s is/are reared & not to document it's/their progress with photos.

I also agree with your suggestion of Fostering under another Canary if there is a failure this time round, but please chose a proven hen.

Well done again, later, Paul. :D :D

[chris]

2 chicks :D possible 3rd on the way!

what i am slightly concerned about is that neither of the 2 chicks have broken free of the shell yet, they have just cut out a hole to breath through. if they haven't freed themselves by tonight i might give them a helping hand, let's hope i don't need to!

paul, what are your thoughts on close ringing the hybrids? i am going to ring the ones i breed but am undecided on whether to use close rings or split rings. if it is closed rings, then i have only a few days to get some :shock: let me know :wink:

chris :wink:

[chris]

hi,

neither chicks had broken free of the shells completely so i did give them a hand, i did the older chick first, and the hen had no problems so i did the second chick a few hours afterward. since doing this i have seen the hen feed the chicks, and suprisingly the greensinger!

next update will be tommorrow now, chris :wink:

[laurab]

Somehow I missed your last few posts Chris :roll:

Fantastic news :D I am looking forward to following their progress.

[PAUL HEARN]

Hello Chris,

I was dreading the fact that you had posted again before I had a chance to reply to your initial question, I thought you were going to tell us one or both chicks had died. :(
So try to imagine how pleased I was to hear that you had managed to help the chicks out of the egg shell & the hen is feeding them, whoooohooo!! :lol:

Although I do suggest you raise the humidity in the Birdroom to help the third egg to hatch & for future rounds.

As for ringing mate, I would recommend split rings for each blood line until the stock you have is more Canary than Wild Serin.
Just colour code youngsters from each pairing until you are sure the Parent Birds will not remove their young from the nest due to ringing.

Later, Paul. :D

[dave85]

hey paul,

For ringing with split rings, which would you use? canary or finch size?

Thanks
Dave H
p.s - would canary closed rings in dark green be noticed by the parents? and would these fit green singers?

[chris]

hi all,

the 3rd egg was fertile, but the chick never completed hatching and died in the shell before i got to it. however, the other two are doing fine and are being fed by the hen so it looks good for now.

chris

[PAUL HEARN]

G'day Chris,

Bad luck on the third Egg, but well done on producing the other two chicks!! :D :D

Good luck & please keep us posted with their progress.

Paul. :D

[chris]

hi,

been a while on the updates, mainly becuase nothin new has happened! the chicks seem fine, i got a glimpse at them today and they are much darker in comparision to ordinary canary chicks, they also have pin feathers coming through on the wings and by the colour of them i'm guessing they'll be either a brown or green colour. hopefully some of the yellow from their mother has been passed on, guess i'll have to wait and see

chris

[PAUL HEARN]

Good one Chris!

Great start for the Miniature Canary breed on your part! :D

Paul. :D

[chris]

again,

nothing special, but they are getting bigger :D
i have noticed that the beaks are a much brighter yellow in the hybrids than that of normal canary chicks. can't wait until the end of next week as they should have feathered up mostly by then :D

chris

[laurab]

Once again, well done Chris :D

[PAUL HEARN]

Hello Chris,

Well done matey on keeping us updated, but I hope you have a few pics for us to see by now. :wink:

Paul. :D

[chris]

hi all,

one more thing i can now tell you, they have yellow breasts, must have got that from their dad :D

not making promises, but there maybe a few pictures coming up as neither parents are bothered by by interference, and they don't stay on the nest much now the chicks are bigger

chris

[PAUL HEARN]

Good one mate!

I look forward to seeing the pics.

Paul. :D

[chris]

hi all,

for some reason i seem to be unable to get the images to appear :lol: despite having done it loads of times in the past!

anyway, here's some links to the pics of my newly fledged canary X greensinger chicks!

http://www.cage-n-aviary.info/BBbkf/1/album_pic.php?pic_id=86

http://www.cage-n-aviary.info/BBbkf/1/album_pic.php?pic_id=88

http://www.cage-n-aviary.info/BBbkf/1/album_pic.php?pic_id=87

enjoy!

:D :D :D :D :D :D chris :D :D :D :D :D :D

[PAUL HEARN]

G'day Chris,

The chicks look great mate, :D they show both parents equally!

Well done mate, Paul. :wink:

[laurab]

Hi Chris

once again well done, the little ones' look gorgeous!

[chris]

hi paul,

any luck with this newly accuired canary hen i've heard of :D

chris :wink:

[laurab]

It's hard to believe, but yes, Paul is the proud (not sure if that is the right word to use :lol: ) owner of a Canary, I have seen it myself :lol:

[chris]

what's wrong with owning a canary :roll: :lol:

chris :lol:

[dave85]

what type? and colour canary has paul got?

What you pairing to her?

Thanks
Dave H

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi all,

Dave where have you been???

The Canary hen I have is a green long streak of P***, some sort of New Colour I'm not familiar with, but as I see it a very good hen Canary to work with.
I know it seems that this project doesn't have any kind of model as of yet, this would be because it is true! :lol:

Over the next couple of years I'm sure we will come up with a Standard for this new variety of Canary, until then good luck to anyone who produces a fertile Mule.

Paul.

[dave85]

hey paul,

What do you mean where have i been?

ull have to show us a pic of the hen canary?

paul,

could you help me find spare birds to make pairs?

i need hen silverbills, some red ears, some st helenas, erm erm and other things like odd lovebirds,etc?

Plus does anyone have any spare wicker nests for finches as i cant find any?

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

hi dave,

if you ask at your local pet shop they are normally more than happy to get something in for customers.

chris

[dave85]

hey chris,

I never buy birds from pet shops as 95% of them are a waste of time and dont have a clue plus in nottingham the only birds i see are common things like budgies, cockatiels and zebra finches in normal colours.

Plus i went to a petshop to have a look today, and found they wanted £14 each for a pet quality size budgie.

Many also over charge considerably!

Thanks
Dave H

p.s - always buy from breeders best way!

[chris]

:?

hi dave,

i wasn't saying to buy birds from a pet shop (and for the record they aren't all bad) i was suggesting you get your wicker nests ordered in at the local pet shop. sorry if i didn't make that clear in the last reply.

as for shops over charging, yes prices are higher because they have to make a profit somewhere. but many breeders also over price birds as you may already know. since i used to work in a pet shop i can say from my own experience that the owners do know there stuff, and the birds are well looked after.

chris :wink:

[dave85]

depends from one to the next really.

I thought you was on about birds not nest baskets

Did you have any contacts for breeders when you was at the pet shop?

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

only budgies :lol:

the chap with the weavers went out the door before i had a chance to speak to him so i missed that opportunity. but i am to be told as soon as any more weavers come in so i haven't totally missed out.

there was a woman who used to come in and talk about her CPQ also, which happened to be parent rearing birds. since i got my original pair from this shop i wouldn't be suprised to find that she was the breeder.

there was another chap who used to bring in Zebra finches every few weeks, and another who brought in fife canaries. unfortunately i never thought to speak up at the time, but theni never really had the chance as i mostly bagged up seed all day :lol: (the reason i quit :lol: )

chris

[dave85]

hey chris,

I would be interested in some CPQ hens if you see any or have any? preferable parent reared. As i have 8 cocks (7 of which are in my flight) and the 8th is in a cage as he has a eye problem e.g. like a runny eye sort of thing.

Have you ever got that? or anyone else? as i also have a bengalese with it too, so any help to treat them both would be appreciated as then they both could go back with the others as im housing them seperated at present.

Also what weavers are we talking? because im hoping maybe to have some once i have enough funds & time to build my new flight ive been allowed :P:P

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

sorry dave, there are no parent reared birds available yet :roll: but she is nesting :D

the weavers are golden palm and lesser masked weavers, i've only ever seen them once in the shop and i had em straight off :D i don't think there'll be any more untill october but i am keeping an eye out. dorset birds have some masked weavers for sale £25 per pair i think, but i don't know of any up your area (or mine :cry: )

i might be thinking of a delivery if i don't have any by the end of the year

chris

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris & Dave,

Chris, I know he is still too far from you but Phil Cleeton of C&J Bird Brokers has Golden Palm & Masked Weavers in stock for £25 pr.

Dave, Please try to find some small wicker nest baskets for your Green Singers, if this isn't possible then buy some small Flower pots & either fill them to the required depth or cut them down to provide the Birds with a usable nesting place.

Paul.

[laurab]

Hi Dave

why not order off the internet?

Try www.dspetsupplies.co.uk

[chris]

hi paul,

i e-mailed CJ bird brookers last week and have since recieved a reply, however he sent the stocklists etc in Microsoft Publisher so until i manage to find the darn CD i won't be getting very far :lol:

thanks anyway,

chris :D

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Is it possible to forward the list to me, or would you need publisher to do that anyway?

If it is possible I could re-send it to you on Microsoft Word or WHY?

Paul. :)

[chris]

Hi all,

the fife hen is now back on eggs :D 6 of em! :shock: i've now named her "Super Canary" because the clutch should only be 4, and this is the second time she's laid 6 now, 5 eggs on the first time also :shock:

the two hybrids are doing fine, the greensinger cock doesn't seem bothered by them as i was expecting them to be driven from the nest at some point... the thing that has really suprised me was to fine the hybrids helping out with the new nest! they pick up any droppings on the nest and throw them on the floor elsewhere, and also help sit the eggs.

this is one hell of a weird and new expreience for me :D and i'm lovin every minute of it :D

Chris :wink:

[chris]

Hi paul,

i'll forward you the stock lists i was sent, i'm going to take them to school on a floppy disc to view them from there so no need to convert and send em back for me :D

chris

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

I received your e-mail & the lists were reduced in size but printed out in A4 size, thanks mate. :D

The only Birds on the list that you may be interested in are the two Weaver Species.

Thanks again, Paul. :)

[chris]

Hi,

this isn't directly related to the greensinger x canary hybrids but it's definately a motivator! has anyone been reading the topic on FF about the fertile goldfinch mule that has produced 2 chicks when bred back with a canary? the goldfinch isn't as closely related to the canary as the greensinger so if this can be done then the chances of us succeeding look good!

http://www.ff3.co.uk/cragsipb/forum/index.php?showtopic=3529&hl=

also, laura, where have the emoticons gone? congratulations on the new layout and forum design!

Chris

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

I don't believe oddbirds has produced chicks from a fertile Goldfinch Mule, my theory is that the Father of the chicks is another Canary and the Mule has taken over parental duties.
I have heard of this happening in mixed Aviaries with Goldfinch Mules feeding and incubating chicks that aren't their offspring.

Paul.

[chris]

hi all,

the 6 eggs are due to hatch monday, however i have checked them today and all appear clear. still, we always knew that this was going to be a hit and miss project, so i'll let her sit untill moday and then after that the nest pan comes out, she gets a rest and they get to go back into the aviary provided the greensinger can behave around the canaries.

also, anyone know where the smilies have gone lol, i'm having difficultly posting without them!

Chris

[webmaster]

Hello Chris.
when pressing the "Post Reply" button do you not see the smiles to the right of the text entry box ?

when using the quick reply text box at the bottom of this page you wont see the smiles so you will need to use the "Post Reply" button.

Kind Regards
Carl

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Carl,

When you click on the Post Reply button smilies appear at the bottom of the box provided to enter text, if you click on any of these smilies they appear at the top right of the text we post & not where we intend for the smilies to appear in a post.
Also the smilies we had before are not available since the change, I hope this helps you in correcting the problems we are experiencing.

Thanks, Paul.

[PAUL HEARN]

G'day Chris,

I agree your Green Singer X Canary pairing may need a rest, but if I were you I would house these Birds in seperate cages/flights for the rest period, you don't want the hen Canary to pair up with a cock Canary during the rest period only to scupper your chances of a future pairing of Green Singer X Canary.

Just my opinion mate, you have been lucky for these Birds to pair together so far, I just don't want you to ruin it.

Paul.

[chris]

i see what you mean mate, i am going to bring all the redfactors outside in for colour feeding soon, so i will bring in the mature cock bird with them to avoid this happening. i do want to give both birds some exercise though as i aren't too keen on breeding in cages if i can help it

Chris;-)

p.s., all smileys are working now thanks carl!

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Sorry mate I didn't catch on to the point of avoiding cage breeding,:???: any new pics of the F1 youngsters for us to see?

And Carl I second the thanks for bringing back the smilies.:grin:

Cheers Paul.:wink:

[laurab]

Hi Paul

I have now moved all my Waxbills and the pair of Green singers ( that are ready when you are) to the (wooden) bird room. They can at least get to see daylight there, it will also be easier for me to prepare them for breeding in there.

[PAUL HEARN]

Hello Laura,

Good move in putting the Waxbills in the wooden Birdroom, if you keep the window open at all times now this will help acclimatise them for when you put them outside in the new Aviary.:wink:

I will come around for the Green Singers over the weekend.

Paul.:grin:

[chris]

Hi paul,

i need your advice concerning the breeding project:grin:

as you know i have now ceased further breeding untill next year where the hybrids are concerned. however, the hen canary and greensinger have other plans! about a month or two ago they tried to nest but i removed the eggs after a week when discovering they were infertile, since then they tried to nest again, but i removed all eggs as i didn't want to push the hen too hard. now there has been at least a 3 week gap of nothing happening and guess what... they're at it again! the hen has now taken up residence in a very large D-cup feeding pot inside and has laid 2 eggs, while the greensinger is defending the double breeder from outside birds:lol:

anyway, i have removed both eggs but have kept hold of them. do you think i should allow them another try since they have had a decent break between the last few attempts, OR do you think i should stick to my guns and say OI!!! NO!!!:lol:


Chris;-)

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

I recon you should let them get on with it mate, from what you say they are trying to tell you something.:grin:

Honestly I think you should let them have another couple of rounds at least, if it was a straight pair of Greensingers in a planted aviary would you have taken eggs away from them?
The weathers good and the Birds are fit, when this changes the Birds will stop for the year.

Go for it matey, Paul.:wink:

[chris]

Hi again, as requested: (after i got off my lazy.... :D )

[chris]

also, the next lot of eggs are due to hatch a week on tuesday, possibly wednesday. i should know instantly whether they are hybrids or fifes. for those that don't know, the cock fife canary has been taking advantage while the hen canary is in her "nest" (food pot):lol: :lol: :lol: so i'm uncertain as to what will come out, if anything. however, if there is another attempt after this one i'll be moving the pair back into a double breeder shut off from the aviary to aviod any unwanted visitors:wink:

Chris

[laurab]

Great pictures Chris! :razz:


Good luck with the next round;)

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

The youngsters are looking great (even with the red bits:grin: ), the Weavers look amazing too (Laura I think the Weaver trend has taken off very well in the Midlands, don't you?:grin: ).
Back to the red bits,:wink: as you may have figured if they are showing some red feathering (I'll let you explain why this has happened:wink: ) it means they have started the moult, so my next obvious question is could you PLEASE post some more photos when they have fully moulted?

Good luck with future rounds mate.

Paul.

[chris]

hi paul, i think they are fully moulted:lol: so looks like i'm stuck with the red bits:lol:

what happened was i was colour feeding the red canary chicks outside with a home made colour eggfood, unfortunately my cooking is so good all the birds ate it:lol: . what i didn't realise at the time was that the colour feed comes through on all birds as an orange/red. so now 2 of the weavers and several canaries have red /orange bits all over em!

it does raise the question though, if all birds can go red through colour feed, then are red factor canaries a true breed, or just ordinary canaries with a bit of red food:?


Chris

[donal]

About 10 years ago I succeeded in crossing Irish Fancy canaries with Green Singers (S. mozambicus), Grey Singers (S. leucopygius), Yellow-rumped Serins (S. atrogularis), and the Streaky Seed-eater (S. striolata). None of the youngsters was interesting to look at, except the Green Singer offspring. Some of these were particularly striking, especially those which had a Dominant White Irish Fancy parent. The ‘moustache’ of the male hybrids and the ’necklace’ of the females, though smudged compared with those of the pure Green Singer, stood out against the white background in a spectacular fashion. Hybrid vigour was very much in evidence, and I was very pleased with the results. Unfortunately my efforts to develop an F2 were a complete failure. Over the next season I paired the hybrids both among themselves and back to Irish Fancy canaries but to no avail. All in all, I collected 130 clear eggs before abandoning the project.

I published these results, along with photographs, in an article for the October 28 1995 issue of the Cage & Aviary.

To others interested in going down the serin hybrid road, I would strongly recommend the use of both Green Singers and Irish Fancy (which are quite prolific) because these birds offer an opportunity to create a sexable variety on the one hand, and a miniature variety on the other. On top of that, this particular cross is very pleasing to look at.

I have now returned to bird-keeping after a long time away. This time around I am breeding from two pairs of Red Siskins which I acquired from Belgium. So far, one pair has produced one clear egg and one youngster, which is now 15 days old and looking good. I also have two pairs of Green Singers which I hope will breed later on. If I am able to generate enough stock now, I will hybridise next season.

Donal.

[laurab]

Hi Donal welcome to Feathered-Friends

thanks very much for your information, I hope Chris and Paul will find it useful; I'm afraid I find it all very confusing :oops:

[chris]

Hi Donal,

that was very interesting reading mate, sorry to here none of the hybrids were fertile. did you by any chance try pairing one of the hybrids back to a greensinger? as this maybe the way for us to go with the project going on what you have said about pairing back to irish fancies

Chris:wink:

[Waxbillman]

hello Donal


welcome to the site,

thats very interesting reading. good luck with your breeding year.

matthew

[PAUL HEARN]

Hello Donal,

First of all welcome to the Forum, I hope you enjoy reading and posting as much as we all do.:grin:

I read your post on African Serin Mules with great interest, I don't know if you have read back to the original post on this thread, but Chris and I hope to breed a Canary Breed a lot smaller than the Irish or Fife Fancy etc.

My personal dream was to produce a Canary Breed near the size of a Green Singing Finch, but with Chris's A1 chicks I think this is almost impossible within the next five years, I think this project has extended to around ten years.

Donal, I would love to read through your breeding records of your own Serin Mule pairings, if I have read this correctly you have tried pairings of Mules to Canaries and Mules to Mules with very little success.
But did you ever try Mules paired to the particular Finch?

Paul.:wink:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Donal,

My next question is, do you intend on Hybridising the Green Singing Finch with the Red Hooded Siskin?

Paul H.

[nigel]

Chris,
Not sure if to ask this question as I know how secretive some people can be with recipes but what is your homemade colour egg food made from, as my red factor is in moult and he loves egg food
( commercial )and tries to eat it all himself so hopefully the others won't get a look in and turn the yellow bishop into an orange spotted one.

Nigel

[chris]

i'll PM you mate or start another thread for this as it's a bit off topic:wink:


Chris

[dave85]

hey chris,

Hows the cross breeding going? anymore hybrid chicks from your pair?

Thanks
Dave H

p.s - can you sexe your 2 young yet?

[nigel]

Chris

No PM yet ?

Nigel

[donal]

Hello Paul, Chris.
No, I never paired a hybrid back to a Green Singer. I wanted to develop a canary type.
Paul H.
No, I don't intend to cross Red Siskins with Green Singers, but it did occur to me to do so in the hope of capturing a fertility factor which would help when crossing a hybrid with a canary. I think your approach is a good one and should be worth following up.
Donal

[chris]

Hi,

Dave, no i can't sex the hybrids visually as they are more canary in appearance than greensinger (around the throat anyway) but i do think i may have 2 cock due to their attempted singing.

Nigel, i'll start a thread for you now mate in the general section

everyone, the eggs in their nest have now hatched, 2 infertile and 3 lovely fife canaries!:-| ah well, can't complain lol

Chris

[laurab]

Well done Chris!

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Donal and Chris,

Donal,

Thank you very much for your words of encouragement to Chris and I on the Minature Canary Breed experiment, even if I've failed so far at least Chris has produced two great youngsters this year.:grin:
If this year is a complete failure for me at least I can try to catch up next year.

Chris,

Good on ya mate for hatching the three Fifes, maybe the smallest of these will be paired with a Green Singer next year?:grin:

Paul.:wink:

[chris]

hi paul,


i could do that, but the hybrids share the same mother as the fifes, so that would be inbreeding:-) . i am keeping back the smallest red-factors that i have bred this year, and will be keeping my eyes out for some irish fancies

Chris:wink:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Sorry mate I didn't realise the Fife chicks were so closely related to the Green Singer Mules you have bred, I look forward to seeing the F2 chicks you breed whether they are paired to Irish Fancy or Red Factors.

I don't want you to think I'm interfering mate, but I noticed from a recent photo showing at least one of the G,S Mules there was a Green Singer in the background and the Mules were more Canary sized than Green Singer sized, would you not consider pairing one of the Mules back to a Green Singer to bring the size down further?

Paul.:grin:

[chris]

Hi paul,

i'm trying out the lot next year, i reckon from previous failure with pairings to canaries, then maybe pairing back to greensingers is the way to go. i should be getting one or two hen greensingers in a few weeks hopefully when the extension is done.

in the meantime i'll try n breed a few greensingers when i get the hens, assuming it isn't too late in the year.

Chris:wink:

[chris]

Hi all,

well the last round wasn't greensinger hybrids due to the pair being allowed out into the aviary and one of the cock canaries taking advantage:neutral: . anyway.... the good news is that this week i have seen the greensinger feeding these chicks regardless of them not being his own, i can only assume this to be good as it is strengthening the bond between the pair. the first chick has fledged today and both the mother and greensinger are doing a really good job of defending it! hopefully in a few weeks i'll be able to place the pair in a breeding cage of there own and see if they can produce any more hybrids this year.

the other 2 hybrids are now moulting (although i was convinced they had already done this) and one of them is developing a nice yellow breast and yellow path on the back, the other is either slightly behind or a hen bird. they just look like big greensingers to me with a bit of canary:grin:

Chris:wink:

[chris]

Hi again,

the first of the 3 chicks fledged yesterday, and another has made the jump today:grin:
i have noticed one seems to be an unusual chocolate brown colour, i'll just have to wait and see if it stays chocolatey after moulting, assuming it doesn't melt in the sun first :lol:

Chris:wink:

[Waxbillman]

well done chris!!

matthew

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Congratulations to you on the fledged chocolate Canary, all I can say is it is lucky you don't keep Sugar Birds, with this Sun and all it would have been licked to death by the Sugar Birds.:grin:

Paul.:-?

[chris]

or placed in sugar bird desert with strawberry finches:? :? :?

Chris:-|

[PAUL HEARN]

What the hell is going on tonight?:D

Have we all been to the Dentist today and still feeling the effects of the Laughing Gas? :shock: :lol:

Paul.:D

[chris]

Hi mwate,


the parwents lwet me on teh bwooze n i'z felin a bit fnuky

sirhc:neutral:

[PAUL HEARN]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[chris]

Hi all,

on friday i placed the greensinger and his mate back into the breedng cage as the fife had started to nest again. this morning i found an egg in there:grin: and since there's no pesky randy fife cock around to mess things up this time i reckon if anything hatches it's a hybrid. i hope this round all goes well as it would be great to have a few more hybrids, then who knows maybe some of us involved in the project could exchange stock at one of the bird sales later in the year.

my fingers are crossed:grin:

Chris:wink:

[laurab]

Sorry to intervene here Chris, but you mentioned hybrids, I am getting quite attached to my Hecksalese! Do you think there could be a market in it?;-)

[chris]

hi laura,

i don't know if there would be. i personally don't have a problem with hybrids provided the normal species are bred aswell (says the one with 1 greensinger:-P ). if there's a purpose to breeding the hybrids eg: new colour mutations in Hecks, smaller size etc then i can't see why not

Chris:wink:

[chris]

Hi paul,


guess who's got more eggs:grin: :grin: :grin: . the hen has gone back into nest mode again, and there are now 4 possibly 5 eggs in the nest. this time i haven't caught any canarys trying it on with her and the greensinger has become very protective of her so my fingers are crossed! the only problem is i wasn't expecting this at all and so didn't get the chance to swap the eggs for dummies while she was/is laying, meaning they're all going to hatch on different days should any prove fertile, or even hybirds at all !

if anything does hatch it should start on the 22nd August onwards, i will be keeping a very close eye on anything that does hatch and will be prepared to feed the chicks by hand if i think they need it.

I'll keep you posted, hopefully we can add a few more hybirds to the 2 bred so far this year

Chris:wink:

[jimmy]

Great news Chris :)

[Waxbillman]

well done Chris!

i wish them luck.

matthew

[PAUL HEARN]

Good one Chris,

My fingers are crossed for you, if you only get a couple of chicks from this round at least you have doubled the Mules you have so far.:grin:

Paul.:wink:

[chris]

Hi all,


it's only 4 eggs this time unlike he 6 she has laid the past few rounds now, i'm hoping this will be it for the year after this round now but who knows, none of my other canarys have shown signs of stopping yet! hopefully i'll be getting another pair of greensingers in the week for breeding next year both as pure greensingers and as hybrids, but this all depends on whether i sell of any of the canary young i have bred so far this year

Chris:wink:

[chris]

Hi all,

the eggs look to be clear, but i'll let her finish the job of sitting them before removing them after 14 days. hopefully i'll have better luck next year and if i can double the number of hybrids i breed i'll be more than happy.

i'd like to know how everyone else involved in the midget canary project is getting along, am i the only one to have bred any hybrids so far or are you all keeping me in the dark:-) . so, Paul, Dave, and whoever else is involved come on n spill the beans. what have you tried and what were the results?

Chris:wink:

[dave85]

hey chris,

I tried cage breeding my greensingers to get more of them for next season but no success, since being placed in a flight were much happier and male singing plus feeding her but no breeding attempt as yet.

Im hoping once i have a planted flight this will allow them to breed fingers crossed :)

Thanks
Dave H

[chris]

Hi dave,

good luck with producing more greeinsingers, i'm sure i've heard from somewhere that they breed later on in the year but who knows as mine didn't seem to mind breeding early like the canaries! apparently they prefer the wicker basket type nests for breeding, but i can't really say untill i breed them for myself

so Paul, how's things been going on the greenisger x canary front for you?

Chris:wink:

[chris]

Hi all, Mainly Paul;-)

i've been out with the camera and got a few photos of the 2 hybrids, which would seem to have moulted into there adult plumage now. you can see the necklace on the hen, the cock lacks this obviously but was also less willing to stay still so the photos aren't head on as with the hen. the cock is in the first 2 photos (this post, the hen wil be in the next post.

Enjoy:grin:

Chris:wink:

[chris]

now the hen,

Chris:wink:

[kenny]

hi chris

really really nice birds you have there buddy,and some really nice pictures i bet you are chuffed with them mate

ken

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for posting the pics mate, the Birds look great, well done for breeding them!!:grin:

Now then these words may sound familiar, do you think you will show either or both of them?

The cock in particular looks gorgeous, if he is steady enough I reckon you would do well with him on the bench, (but not as well as Lauras Hecksalese:lol:).

Unfortunately my half hearted efforts this year were met with the results they deserved, nothing!

I promise to give it a proper go next year though, Paul.:wink:

[chris]

Hi Paul,

i've never shown a bird before, nor have i ever been to a show so i wouldn't have a clue what i would be doing or entering for. if you have any suggestions as to what show cage, training the bird(s), what class etc etc i'd be willing to give it a try. better find me a local bird club that runs compettitions!

both the birds are a bit on the jumpy side at the moment, mainly restless when i'm pointing the camera at them:lol: but they are calming down, particularly when it's feeding time as a few of the canarys are learning to hand feed, so i hope these 2 will follow suit and calm down a bit

Chris:wink:

[Waxbillman]

lovely birds you got there Chris, well done

matthew

[dave85]

hey chris,

Nice birds!

Looks like cock bird has took on more of the greensingers appearance, whereas the hen looks more like a canarie.

So id pair the cock x a canary and a hen x a greensinger.

Then you may get half -half looking ones instead of showing more of one than the other.

But congrats on em anyway chap!

Thanks
Dave H

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

The Show Cage you would need would be either an Australian Finch, Zebra Finch or a Bengalese Show Cage depending on how comfortable the Bird/s are in the choice of cages.
To begin with it would be a good idea to put the steadiest of your Canaries in with the G,S, Mule to help in steadying the Bird and then try the Mule on it's own in the Show Cage offering all of the Birds favourite foods, but when you put the Mule back into it's normal quarters only feed the basic diet.

I have a feeling I have quite a way to go on convincing certain members on the joy of Showing:roll:, but I hope to get there in the end:grin:.

Paul.:wink:

[kenny]

hi paul

you dont have to convince me on the joys of showing mate i used to love it even if i didnt get a single card,its all the training of the birds to steady them in the show cages misting them to get their plumage first rate cutting the fatty seeds out so they dont get to fat and then getting them to the show and disagreeing with the judge on his choice of winning bird all good stuff i havent done it for years but i dont half miss it mate

ken

[chris]

Hi Paul,


Cheers mate i'll get a bengie show cage and give it a go

Chris:wink:

[chris]

Hi All,

i have some sad news, i've lost the hen greensinger hybrid:sad: . she seemed a bit off yesterday sitting on the floor, however after going to catch her she picked up and started perching etc as normal so i gave her the benifit of the doubt. this morning she was fine, but when i came back home she was on the floor with her eyes shut, i picked her up instantly which wasn't a good sign and she died a few minutes after:cry: .

i think i've found the cause of the problem, which is a type of fungi growing on a log in the aviary, i have now disinfected the area and hopefully solved the problem.

Chris

[Waxbillman]

what a shame Chris

i'm very sorry to hear that.

i hope the problem is sorted now.

matthew

[laurab]

Hi Chris

I am so sorry to read your sad news :(

I too have lost a bird today, it was a young Diamond Dove. I didn't think it looked too good on Sunday, I thought it may have caught a chill so I removed it from the aviary to the bird room. It looked fine this morning and was eating well. Tonight when I got home it was sat huddled in the corner of the cage with it's eyes firmly shut. As I bent to look at it it breathed it's last. :(

[chris]

Hi Laura,

i'm sorry to hear of your diamond dove also. it seems to have died in a very similar way to mine, but i can't see as mine would have got a chill as the aviary is wrapped up like a greenhouse.

i still can't get over that i've lost one of the hybrids, they really are my pride and joy of the year:sad:

i just hope nothing happens to any of my other birds and that i have found the problem in time.

Chris:cry:

[kenny]

hi laura/chris
sorry to here of your sad losses it really cracks me up to lose a bird so i know what you are feeling and its a shame chris that you didny find the fungi earler mate

:cry: :cry: ken

[chris]

Hi Kenny,

to make things worse i've been aware of the fungi for some time now, the birds haven't touched the stuff although i did catch this hen hybrid nibbling at it a month or so ago nothing ever came of it so i thought nothing of it:roll:

so i guess it's my ownfault for this happening, but i'll mae damn sure that fungus never grows back again if that indeed was the cause of her death

Chris:sad:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris and Laura,

Chris,

I know how proud you were to have bred these two Birds, it must be a huge loss to you on a project so important to you to lose one of them.:sad:

Please don't be too upset though, at least you have one remaining youngster from this year and the Parents too.
Try to be possitive in that you will hopefully breed more next year, chin up mate!:wink:

Laura,

Again I'm sorry you have lost your young Diamond Dove, every loss is heartbreaking to all of us.
I just hope all of your successful breedings make up for your losses.:wink:

Paul.

[chris]

Hi All,

if this import ban does become a reality, then i will put this project on hold untill there is a lift on the ban or sufficient numbers of greensingers are being bred in the country. instead of breeding mules i will focus on breeding pure greensingers and do what i can to estabish a captive bred population, we can always get back to the project at a later date when there are more greensingers about.

as for my mule bred this year, i'll continue to try and breed from him as i have nothing to lose either way:grin:

i suggest all others involved in this project focus on breeding the greensingers for a year or so first if the ban does become reality, that way no body can complain we aren't doing our bit and there will still be plenty of greensingers around

Chris:wink:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

I admire your post mate!!

But I don't think you have anything to worry about, as I said on a thread elsewhere there was a ban two years ago resulting in Birds being destroyed on the Continent due to confirmed cases of Avian Flu, but this soon passed as I hope it will do this time.

If this ban does go ahead I'm sure it will be lifted as soon as it is put into place.

Paul.:wink:

[Gary]

Chris thats great idea, good on you

[Waxbillman]

hello Chris

that seems a good idea to start breeding your on stocking of green singers,

though keep the project going if possible, even if its on a smaaller scale,

Matthew

[chris]

Hi all,

in that case then i think i'll just have to get hold of a few greensingers aswell as continuing with the project on a smaller scale. then the year after when i have an abundance of greensingers (hopefully) i can use at least a few of the young for the project while continuing to breed pure greensingers.

Chris:wink:

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Chris,

I don't think there will be a shortage of Green Singers for some time mate, they are proven to be very long lived Birds under controlled conditions, it isn't unheard of for these Birds to live up to 20 years old.
But I would say that an average age would be around 10 years old in Captivity, the project in producing a Miniature Canary Breed is far from over mate, even if an import ban is put into place.

Paul.:wink:

[dave85]

I'll be attempting to breed my green singers, so im hoping i can boost the numbers for both the project and the rest of aviculture :P

Do you think its too late for my birds to breed?

Thanks
Dave

[chris]

Hi dave,

at this time of year, unless you have a heated indoor aviary with exrta lighting, then there's pretty much no chance and i wouldn't advise it either. however if you wait untill about March next year then they should come into breeding along with your canaries

Chris:wink:

[chris]

Just thought i'd add,

if you lot are still really up for at least one or two muling pairs next year, then now is the time to pair up your greensingers to canaries, and keep them in there own cages. by the time the breeding season comes they'll have a good bond (hopefully) and should give on or two good results like mine have for me

Chris

[dave85]

chris,

Sorry to correct you but i popped a couple of nestpans in my finch flight with a mixture in - including me greensingers.

And the pair choose a nestpan and the hen was seen carrying nesting material to it, so fingers crossed ill get something as they have been feeding , calling etc all year.

Thanks
Dave

[chris]

Dave,

your not correcting me mate,

i said it isn't a good idea to breed them at this time of year, not that they won't try as i had canaries trying to nest and still laying eggs a few weeks ago. soon put a stop to it mind. if you do want to breed em, keep them inside in the warmth otherwise you'll have the frost to compete with, freezing nights, fireworks, and egg binding

Chris

[jimmy]

not to mention, not enough daylight hours in an outside flight

thats if they are outside of course. :?

[Pyxel]

I agree with Chris, best to keep to the birds natural breeding cycle.

[dave85]

my aviary is well protected from the elements with fully covered roof and all sides blocked in ready for winter, i popped the nestpans in as its mild in the flights and the greensingers were trying to nest in a corner on a ledge.

thanks
dave
p.s - they were disinterested in nesting all year but now they seem to so well see what happens and ill keep you all posted.

[chris]

Hi All,

as some of you know my muling pair are insisting the breeding season hasn't finished yet and have nested in the food pot, with 2 eggs now:shock:

has anyone got any ideas how to stop them breeding without separating the pair?

the diet is simply dry mixed canary and a bit of greens every now and then, nothing rich such as livefoods, extra hemp, niger, blue maw or anything like that, no soaked seeds, i can't work out why they are still at it!

the daylight hours are the same as outside, i do have a light on in the shed however this goes off when the sun goes down

Chris:???:

[jimmy]

Hi Chris,

Have you removed all possible nesting material and nesting sites.

Also would it be worth just giving plain canary seed in stead of mixed,

[kenny]

hi chris

if its any consolation mate my javas and bengies are still laying eggs and sitting them and there is no nests and nesting material ithink all the warm weather has been messing with their heads i have no heating and no lighting but they are still laying eggs and a lot of them have been fertile

ken

[PAUL HEARN]

Hello Chris,

I don't think diet change will stop these Birds from attempted breeding right now, the only option I can see is to split this pair until Spring, but I don't think this will ruin your chances of breeding from this pair of Birds next year.
It seems to me breeding is the only thing on these Birds minds, so a split until next spring will do no harm.

Paul.;-)

[chris]

Hi Jimmy,

there is no nest material or nest sites on offer yet they keep on trying

Paul, unfortunately i have no free cage space at all so separating themis not possible anyway. what worries me is should i leave the eggs under her as there is a chance of fertility and more hybirds.... or do i take them out and dispose of them before they have a chance to develop. i don't want to breed my birds at this time of year, but on the other hand i definately don't want to throw away possible fertile hybrid eggs:neutral:

Chris;-)

[chris]

3 eggs now:neutral: and also since all birds have access to the aviary one interferring cock canary:neutral: :oops: , looks like they won't be hybrid eggs anyway so i have nothing to lose in removing them when she's finished laying

kind of a relief really

Chris;-)

[laurab]

Chris

you will soon be able to upload your own articles on this site, I'm sure you have a good story there ;-)

[chris]

Hi Laura,

it's curently about half wrote:razz: , i hope to have finished the rough draft by next week so i can put it past Paul for anything he wants to add. This is where i think a new area on the forum could come in handy for writing such articles and helping each other out

Chris;-)

[Pyxel]

I agree with Chris with having a certain forum to post articles. I doubt I would have anything to add but It's nice to read other articles; presuming the "article forum" will be fully accessible to all members.

[laurab]

Hi Pyxel

there are already some articles on the main site :wink:

[chris]

Hi All,

well i thought the hen had finished playing silly buggers for the year, but then i found another egg in the food pot this morning after the previous nest and 4 eggs a few weeks back:neutral:

i'm now planning on changing the diet to Foreign finch mix, as it is less rich than the canary mix and so hopefully they'll think that's enough for the year. Fortunately i sold off this year's canarys yesterday so have loads of cage space now, and can separate them should i need to.

also, finished the article on the greensinger project and have sent it to BKW, finger's crossed it might get printed. the article is in the articles section on the forums if anyone hasn't read it, it is fairly long though!

Chris;-)

[Waxbillman]

good luck Chris

i'll keep my eyes out in BKW.

Matthew

[chris]

Hi All,

thanks to the cold weather i found the hen suffering with egg binding this morning, fortunately i caught it early and provided a light for heat and she passed the egg within 10 minutes. Now she's as happy as larry hoping around in the cage, it did have me worried for a while as losing that bird would be very bad for the project.

i've also paired up the hybrid to a spare hen canary i kept, hopefully they'll bond to each other over the winter and i might have some results in the spring. i would pair him to a greensinger hen, but i won't be getting any untill next year now. There's still time though so no rush

Chris;)

[chris]

well,

the Hybrid x canary pair seem to be doing well. no problems betweenthe pair, no signs of pairing that i have seen either, but the hen has laid a full clutch of eggs in the food pot..........

i think htat's how it started with the greensinger x canary pair so finger's crossed they'll be paired and ready to go for next year. all the eggs were infertile, but then she hadn't mated so i wasn't expecting any result

hopefully they might stop laying this year:lol:

Chris:wink:

[kenny]

hi chris
you are having the same thing happening as me with birds being sex mad,it must be something in the seed do you feed yours on bucktons mate.i think i will try and get some condoms

ken

[Waxbillman]

hello Chris

lets hope she stops laying soon, otherwise she will have no energy left, have you tried feeding that seed thats supposed to help stop them, blue maw is it? i forget what it is exactly but i know some breeders do use the stuff.

Matthew

[kenny]

hi matt
yep blue maw is the name,it is actually poppyseeds,if you get a poppy at the end of ite season you will get thousands of seeds from one head ,i am surprised you not knowing that you horticulturist person you.it acts in the same way as morphine does it kills your sex drive.i used it when i had young canaries to encourage them to eat put some on milksop or something similar and they peck at them because it turns black when wet and they can see it better against the white background

ken

[Waxbillman]

ey up Ken course i knew it was poppy seed, not the native field poppy though,

i wasn't certain whether it was maw seed that had those properties or not.

Matthew

[kenny]

correct mr guest in both

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for that gem of information on the Blue Maw, I'm going to stop feeding it to my Birds by the bucket full and then I might breed some Birds next year.:lol:

I have never heard this before, so yet again the wealth of information from the Feathered Friends Family has taught me something new.

Paul.:D

[Pyxel]

Just wondering what is being aimed for at the end of this, I know it's a new Canary breed - but what size, shape etc. or any similiarities to already existing species? I should probably read the full thread for these answers but I'm knackered.

Definitely a very interesting and obviously challenging thing to be involved in. Good luck next year and hopefully some more young will be produced.

[kenny]

hi paul
no probs mate thats what the site is here for in the first place,i have learnt loads of stuff since being on here all to the good aswell

ken

[chris]

Hi Kenny,

i've started feeding the stuff at the start of last week, doesn't seem to be working though as she is still nesting.

Pyxel,

the idea is to produce a fertile hybrid which can then be selectivley bred from to produce a real minature canary. all going well hopefully something the size of a greensinger (4.5 inches roughly)

Chris

[chris]

Hi All,

we've possibly got another member for the project, i will say more when i know for certain

Chris;-)

[Waxbillman]

brilliant

Matthew

[chris]

Hi All,

looks like this years season is just about to get started, i have paired up all birds and moved them into cages for breeding (had to re-jig them after getting more birds last week). the greensingers have a double breeder to themselves sop fingers crossed they'll breed sooner or later. the greensinger x fife pair are now in their own double breeder and i have seen the cock feeding the hen for the past few weeks now, the hen has just started to carry nesting material so things are looking up. also the greensinger mule has been feeding his mate today (another fife hen) and she has also been carrying nesting material around. this pairing will be the real test as he's either fertile or not, and if he's fertile it's pretty much mission accomplished (or at least the hard part)

Chris:D

[kenny]

hi chris
nice one mate i hope it works out for the best,and hope your cock bird is fertile as you say that will be the hard partof the job done if he is

ken

[chris]

Hi Again,

the greensinger x fife pair has now built a nest so i can expect eggs in a few days

the greensinger mule x fife pair has also built a nest, again i can expect eggs (clear ones:lol: ) although i will be very suprised if any are fertile

the greensinger pair haven't shown much interest in nesting yet, however the cock has been feeding the hen so things may pick up shortly. i may need to use a different type of nest or even cover the current one with conifer branches but we will see what happens for now

Chris;)

[chris]

We've got eggs:D

so far 2 eggs from the greensinger mule x fife, and 1 egg from the greensinger x fife. they normally lay anything from 4 to 7 eggs each, so i can expect 5 or 6

Chris;)

[Waxbillman]

brilliant!!

Matthew

[PAUL HEARN]

Good one Chris,

Great news mate,;-) my fingers are crossed for you, and I feel there is another article in the making here.:D

Paul.:D

[kenny]

great news chris,everything is on schedule for you mate lets hope they dont dissapoint as i want to see a picture of those chicks when they fledge mate well done buddy

ken;-)

[Savant]

Well done Chris

Alan.

[chris]

Hi All,

the greensinger mule x Fife canary pair now have 5 eggs and the hen is sitting tight. i'll leave them to it now for 2 weeks and see if anything hatches (fingers crossed)

The greesinger x fife now have 4 eggs and she is still laying as far as i know so she still only has duff eggs under her for now. i haven't caught the greensinger mating with the canary (then again i never caught em at it last year http://www.british-birds-in-aviculture.info/1.5/all_british_bird_forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif ) however i reckon at least half the eggs will be fertile. hopefully there won't be any trouble with the mules hatching this year but i will keep a very close eye on em just incase we have the same trouble as last year.

The greensingers are showing no interest in nesting, might have to try a nest box or a well hidden nest pan rather than what i have at the moment.

also have the red factors laying now http://www.british-birds-in-aviculture.info/1.5/all_british_bird_forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Chris http://www.british-birds-in-aviculture.info/1.5/all_british_bird_forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Waxbillman]

well done Chris, fingers crossed

Matthew

[PAUL HEARN]

Good on ya Chris,

It's all looking to be a great start for your 06 breeding season so far.:wink:

I hope to contribute in some way to the Green Singer X Canary project later in the year mate,:-D and after seeing your F1 G/Singer Mule, I think you are well on the way to producing the desired Birds.:-D

Well done Chris, I look forward to seeing the results from this years breeding.

BTW, Alan Brown of Dorset Birds has a few Grey Singers, I hope to include these Birds on my part with this project.

Paul.:-D

[Waxbillman]

that would breed an even smaller race with an excellant song.
good idea Paul

Matthew

[kenny]

hi chris
glad to here everything is still on track as paul says looks like your 06 breeding season has gone of with a bang i know that the way it is sometimes ,as some years i have been like that and some years you dont breed hardly a thing...............paul nice to here you are getting some grey singers these really drab looking birds have a really sweet song that sometimes puts the greensingers to shame hope you are successfull in getting some mate

ken

[PAUL HEARN]

Hello Matthew and Ken,

The initial idea of this project was to produce a new Miniature Canary Breed, I have left myself with only a pair of Giant Greensingers to pair with Rasa Canaries.
But I hope the Grey Singers will bring down the size even more.

I can only hope until the resulting Birds are produced.

Paul.:-D

[kenny]

hi paul
if they pair up ,mate and breed it will certainly bring the size down,as i think they are slightly smaller in comparison to the greensingers mate.so good luck with that project hope it works for you

ken

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Ken,

You are correct mate, the Grey Singer is only slightly above two thirds the size of the Green Singer, and only half the size of the Giant Green Singers I have.

But as well as contributing to the project Chris has started so well,:D I also want to breed the two Species in their own right.
The Giant Green Singers differ from the Nominate in being only just under a third larger (the name is quite misleading really:roll:), they have brighter green upperparts and brighter yellow underparts, but the most obvious difference is that the hens lack the necklace of the Nominate and instead they have a white spot on their throat.
And although the Greys are as you say Ken quite drab, they are tiny and quite delicate looking, but man what a song they have, it is almost unbelievable that such a strong, loud but sweet song can come out of such a tiny Bird.:-D

Paul.:wink:

[kenny]

hi paul
the worst thing about them is the sexes are alike so you could end up with 2 cocks or 2hens

ken

[chris]

Oi!! you lot are going to tempt me into trying out grey singers at this rate:mad: :lol:

the greensinger x fife pair now have 6 eggs and the hen is now sitting, should hatch on 8th of April i think i worked it out to be. please be fertile!:mrgreen:

just about everything seems to want to start breeding now, i think that needs another topic though

Chris:wink:

[kenny]

hi chris
we are all keeping our fingers crossed for you mate,and the grey singers are tempting if only for their song

ken



http://www.feathered-friends.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=339&stc=1&d=1143386109http://www.feathered-friends.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=340&stc=1&d=1143386109 (http://www.feathered-friends.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=339&stc=1&d=1143386109http://www.feathered-friends.co.uk/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=340&stc=1&d=1143386109)


hi chris i know you know what they look like but i thought it would be better if other people who dont know can see what we are talking about mate

[dave85]

hi chris,

all the luck with you chris for your project but may i just point out a simple mistake - dont you mean 8th April and not 8th march?

Thanks
Dave

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Ken and Chris,

Ken,

Your right mate, they are difficult to sex, but the cocks plumage shows more grey on the back etc and more white on the underparts, the hen has more of a grey/brown back with creamy/white underparts amongst other subtle differences, but as you say sexing is far from easy.:shock:
And thanks for posting the photos mate, what is unfortunate on my part is that after all I have said above is that I have only four Birds to choose from at Alans and they all look so very similar.:roll:

Chris,

Concentrate on the Green Singer crosses for now, and possibly include the Greys at a later date if you want to, your progress so far is great mate, please don't get sidetracked with what I've had to say.:D

Paul.;-)

[kenny]

hi paul
if they are cheap enough mate i would take the lot,for one there are not many about and they are not aggressive when breeding so you could keep them all together mate

ken;)

[chris]

Hi Paul/ ken,

if they aren't aggressive while breeding then i could keep them in the aviary with the other birds, which is something i can't do with the greensingers so it wouldn't make much difference either way.

The pair of greensingers i've had off Paul (who had them off laura), are now nesting.... in the food pot!:-| despite my attempts to hide the nest pan better so they may use it they seem to want to use a small d-cup feeder on the front of the cage. what i have done now though is place a much larger D cup in the same spot to see it they will use that or the nest pan

Chris

[kenny]

hi chris
it cant hurt mate if they refuse to use anything else then i would just let them pick their own nesting site

ken

[PAUL HEARN]

Hi Ken and Chris,

Ken,

I intend on buying them all, there are only four there as I said before, so I hope there will be at least one true pair among them.;-)

Chris,

As Ken has mentioned Grey Singers are far from agressive, so if you manage to find some soon they will be very peaceful in a mixed aviary, but having said that have the Green Singers really been a problem with your Weavers in the past?

I'm pleased the Green Singers that you got from me, (that I got from Laura, that Laura got from Alan, that Alan got from.........):lol:, are attempting nesting so soon.

Do you remember Dave had a very similar experience with his Green Singers last year?:roll:

Good luck with breeding from the Green Singers, Green Singer x Canary, Green Singer/Canary x Canary and in finding some Grey Singers.

Paul.:-D

[kenny]

hi paul
good for you mate i would do the same with those odds you must get a pair at least

;-) ken

[chris]

Hi Paul,

yes i do remember, my canaries have a habit of doing it also but soon go back to the nest pan when one is added, unfortunately the greensingers haven't quite got the idea yet. however, the d-cup they are now nesting in is easily the same size as a nest pan if not a bit bigger so i can't see as it will be a problem.

the greensinger i had inside when you came down is normaly housed in the aviary, however he does take up the whole one end of the aviary and chases any weavers away, also doesn't let any bird through the bob hole other than his mate and chicks as that's where they usually nest. having seen him take on the vitteline weaver, the african golden weaver and other birds i don't want to chance it (which is why i'm loking at a new block of 4 aviaries:cool: if i'm lucky!)

if i thought the greensingers would be safe in the aviary, or rather the other birds safe with the greensingers breeding in the aviary then the pair i have would be outside instead of in a breeding cage. i reckon they should be safe to go out at the end of the year when they have finished breeding, if not into a new aviary before then.

i'll be keeping my eyes out for grey singers then, i was under the impression that they had the same temperment as greensingers:roll:

Chris:wink:

[kenny]

hi chris
greensingers really are nasty especially when breeding,they give bronze wing mannakins a run for their money in the fighting stakes.if you are thinking of getting the grey variety you may just aswell build a new aviary as they are easily bullied and no match for your green ones

ken:shock:

[chris]

Hi Kenny,